Gabriel Boric with Infobae: “Putin is an autocrat who is waging an unacceptable war of aggression”

At just 36 years old, Gabriel Boric became the continent's greatest political novelty by ending the alternation in power of the two great coalitions that ruled his country for the past 30 years and becoming the youngest president in the history of Chile. His arrival in La Moneda, after the massive social protests of 2019 and while a new Constitution is being drawn up, was the latest sign that the leadership that served to get out of the Pinochet dictatorship and grow with stability, a decline in poverty and low inflation - a rarity in the region - was no longer able to provide answers to challenges long-standing and new social demands.

In his country and in Latin America, the former student leader and rising star of the “new left” generates enthusiasm and fears in various sectors. Before ending his first international trip to Buenos Aires, he received Infobae at the Chilean embassy for an interview.

-He is close to celebrating his first month as the youngest president in the history of his country, is he enjoying it or is he suffering it?

-It is a process of lifelong learning, of challenges that do not stop. A president of a friendly republic told me that being president of the 21st century is to be permanently managing crises. And the problem is that if you dedicate yourself to managing crises, you lose your way. So it is very important, at the same time as one manages the situation, to be very clear about where you want to go. And I have tried to worry about not being an opinionator of the situation, but rather a president who is thinking about how to approach the ship towards the port where we are going. That's not easy. It will surely bring difficulties in terms of opinion polls and things like that, but I think it is the right thing to think about the long term rather than just the next hour.

- Can you sleep well or can you just imagine the work ahead of you makes you sleep little?

No, notice that I have the gift of being able to fall asleep easily to piacere. I mean, when I want to sleep, I can lie down and rest. Not as much as I'd like, but I don't have sleep problems. In fact, I dream a lot. I have a very fertile imagination in those hours.

- And do you remember dreams?

-I remember dreams and often wrote them down. Which is crazy, because seeing the subconscious is sometimes strange.

-The choice of Buenos Aires as your first international destination had more to do with fulfilling an informal tradition among Chilean presidents or with the personal fondness you have shown for Argentina, for Argentine culture, for books, for music, for Argentine football?

-It's a mix. When you become president of the Republic, you enter to inhabit an institution that is bigger than yourself. Then you can't come by trying to sweep away everything past and with certain traditions that also make sense. Long ago, the presidents of Chile and President Bachelet also, their first official visits were here to the sister Argentine Republic. I wanted to maintain that but also, as I mentioned, a strong link with Argentina because I am from Patagonia. We don't have a mountain range there, so the crossing is much easier. We shared Tierra del Fuego and, as you well say, I grew up listening to Argentine punk in conjunction with the Chilean and a permanent exchange of bands, enjoying football. I had the opportunity to meet some of my football referents who came to greet us here at the embassy, Pipo Gorosito, Beto Acosta, Polo Quintero, Charly Vazquez, it was a tremendous honor. And now, lately, too, of course, more and more literature.

-You present it in a very poetic and pleasant way that there are no borders in Patagonia, but let me tell you that, in contrast to that, Patagonia has also been the place where there have been the most border conflicts in recent times and a lot of resentment has arisen between Argentines and Chileans

-But why do you say it's the place where the most...

-Well, there was the conflict on the Beagle Channel that almost led to a war in 78, then the dispute over continental ice in the 90s and now a new dispute over the continental shelf appeared... All this has led to a lot of resentment and when I listen to you it seems more like an exception than the rule of what I heard among Patagonians.

-Look, in Tierra del Fuego, where we share territory, there is Rio Grande, we have Porvenir. And in Porvenir there is the brotherhood race, which is one of the few races in Latin America that is bi-national. It is a car race, not professional, but that has been run since the 70's, which was even raced in 78. So, when the elites of certain territorial places fight and scream or perhaps some minority sector of journalism scream against the neighbors, the truth is that that does not represent the majority of the people. And what I have seen in Patagonia is that there is much more brotherhood, than competition, permanent traffic, constant collaboration and therefore I think that what you mentioned is rather an exception. Now, there are always rivalries between neighboring countries, sometimes heartfelt, sometimes more absurd, but what I also wanted to show on this trip is that we can have differences, for example around the Antarctic continental shelf, but if we have that difference, we have a hundred other things in common that unite us and I am going to work with particular emphasis on those and I will defend my point of view in which we have a difference.

-About this difference that exists with respect to the continental shelf in the South Atlantic, have you been able to talk to President Alberto Fernández, specifically, what mechanism you plan to use to resolve this difference?

We haven't discussed the details, but I am very confident that this will be done through diplomatic channels, I hope that it will not be necessary to reach any other type of body and in any case that is a parallel path that will not stop the process of collaboration and integration in all the other areas we are working on, energy, cultural, health policy, economic and so many others.

-At the summits between presidents, many projects are announced and then few are made. Even in the case of Argentina and Chile, there is a project, the low-altitude tunnel of Agua Negra, between San Juan and Coquimbo, which was announced by Cristina Kirchner as President, was re-announced by Mauricio Macri together with Sebastián Piñera, but not a single stone has been laid there yet...

It's not one of the ones I mentioned. We're going to study it. It had funding from the IDB. We are interested in promoting border integration with Argentina. There are many possibilities in Catamarca, in Santa Cruz, in Neuquén, there are many places where it can be done and with Aguas Negras we have some environmental observations and conveniences, but I have no doubt that we are going to solve it. What Alberto told me is that there is no obsession with it being in a certain place, it could be 15 kilometers further or more here, the point is that it is in the place where it suits both countries best and we are going to review it.

-If you had to say two things that will move quickly...

-The bioceanic corridor in the north, which also involves Paraguay, Brazil, northern Argentina and Chile, is something that is tremendously important to us. We are going to prioritize it and we believe that it can be a tremendously important trade integration tool for linking the Pacific with the Atlantic and shortening the travel times of products exported today through the Panama Canal or through the southern canals and being able to pass much faster. I hope to go to Paraguay during the second half of this year to see the issue of construction on the Paraguay River and hopefully soon I can be inaugurating this step that will greatly benefit all these regions. Another issue that seems tremendously important to us is the issue of gas. We have part of the industry installed, not 100% but part, to be able to move forward in liquefying gas. We know that you have very important reserves in Vaca Muerta, that this is not yet connected to the central grid and we believe that there we can make swaps or look for different alternatives that complement us energetically not only in the area of gas, but also with renewable, non-conventional energies or clean energies such as hydrogen green in the south. There are two very concrete things on which I hope we will have results soon. Besides, there are things that are not so tangible. Whenever we talk about relations between countries, we talk about trade. We have a trade exchange of more than five billion dollars, Chilean investments in Argentina generate about 125,000 jobs. We came with entrepreneurs from different sectors, small and medium-sized companies, cooperatives, large companies... we hope to be able to increase Chilean investment in Argentina and, vice versa, that Argentine investment in Chile will increase, giving them all the certainty of legal certainty that is required for them. But not only silver are bilateral relations. We want to promote cultural exchange. We have a shared culture a long time ago from which we have drunk each other and where the new expressions of art... today we were at the Argentine Museum of Fine Arts, but also yesterday we had a show where there was music from the new Latin American song, even rap, passing by a singer of diverse genre... then we have much more where we can grow and grow.

-Unfortunately, in recent times the Chilean capitals that left Argentina made news...

-But, mate, don't always see the negative side! This is true until a certain period, but in the last year trade between Chile and Argentina increased by 30%. So I hope that we will be able to consolidate that figure and that both countries will be able to give legal certainty to investors so that it is effectively attractive to invest in each of our countries.

-It was expected that during your visit to Congress you would meet with Vice-President Cristina Fernández. Did you have any news as to why it didn't happen?

-I understand he was in Calafate or Santa Cruz. This was a state visit where we met with the judiciary, the president of the Supreme Court, the president of the Chamber of Deputies, Sergio Massa, the president of the Nation and the deputy president of the Senate. If Senator Cristina Kirchner had been here, I would be delighted to meet with Cristina. I think we all have to do our best to ensure that our countries do well and, if we can collaborate on something, I am fully available.

-In these hours in Argentina, you have surely talked and been able to learn about the difficulties faced by a government coalition...

-I know him, I know him...

-Because here the difficulties have been from the very beginning to the current point where the President and his vice-president do not speak to each other. I don't know if they have given you any recommendations because you are also going to govern in a coalition where there are marked differences, some that have already been made public. Are you afraid of having similar difficulties and trying to learn something from what is happening in Argentina?

-Look, we have a lot of difficulties. Indeed, we have political traditions that are not the same and for a long time we were in confrontation, so we have much to learn from that skill and management that Peronism has also historically had to gather different visions within the same body and to be able to move things forward. Now, we are not a copy or copy of anyone. We are creating our own project. Chile has a long-standing coalition culture. In the 20th and 21st centuries, all governments, except the dictatorship and the one-party government of Eduardo Frei Montalva, have all been coalition governments. And therefore I have no doubt that we are going to make it happen.

-Your coming to power generated news all over the world and the main characterization that has been made of you is as a benchmark of the “new left”. Are you comfortable with that characterization and, if so, how is the “new left” different from the “old left”?

-I think there is no virtue per se in youth or novelty. If you affirm or try to affirm your speech in youth or novelty, you are setting an expiration date very early. I hope that we will be judged by our works, by ours by our actions and by the way we defend our convictions and principles. It is clear that the left has a duty to be constantly reimagining itself. If, after the learning of the 20th century and the collapse of what was considered the socialist camp, there was a period called the decade won in Latin America, which did not end well either because it did not have continuity and because some of the projects that were manifested there not only did not have continuity but also had deviations which are not desirable, I think it is important that we have, collecting both successes and failures and mistakes, the ability to reinvent ourselves and we are in that process. What does that mean in particular? We have to incorporate new demands, new agendas, the environmental one, the fight against the human-made climate crisis is central. It must be central to our politics, not only at the nation-state level, but at the Latin American and global levels. The feminism agenda, which is not a sectoral agenda, but has to permeate all public policies, is something tremendously important. The new relationship we have with indigenous peoples, who preexist before the formation of nation states is also relevant. And by the way, the old longing of the left is the construction of states that guarantee universal social rights regardless of the size of the wallet or the place of the cradle, and in that we have much to learn from history.

I'm going to stop at one of those points. Chile and Argentina are experiencing a similar conflict, even more acute in Chile than in Argentina, with Mapuche extremist groups that do not recognize the authority of the national state. They have taken up arms and are calling for historical vindication and for their ancestral lands to return to their power. You said you want to talk to them, but the day before yesterday Coordinator Arauco Malleco (CAM) confirmed that she does not plan to dialogue with you, she mocks your “good vibes” and “progresses” profile and confirms that she will continue with her armed struggle to recover her ancestral lands. What do you do with this?

-This is a historical conflict that dates back to at least 1860, in the ill-named process in Chile of pacification of Araucania, which was rather a process of usurpation and dispossession. And since then this has had different eras. Since the 1990s, violence has been increasing and there are some who seek to see it only from a public order perspective. The lack of public order, crime and violence are derived from a much deeper historical and political conflict, which is the relationship between a state and a people that has the right to exist as such, with all that it means, not only in a paternalistic and tourist perspective. And we aspire to move forward, as other countries around the globe, such as New Zealand, Canada or Bolivia itself, have done, around the national recognition of the existence of a diversity of peoples within our country and also the right to self-determination, which is not the same as secession, as some people claim and misinform. I discussed it at length with Jacinta Arden, the Prime Minister of New Zealand. It is possible to try other alternatives. Now, that reconstruction of trust in something that is so damaged is obviously going to cost a lot of work that needs to be done under the rope, a lot of work that needs to be done in silence, without pretending to win it from communicational maneuvers. Now, by the way, one must also set certain limits and those who believe that the path of arms is the way to solve a historical political conflict of this kind, from my point of view they are mistaken, but also, as president of Chile, I have a duty to enforce the law and the rule of law.

- And what would this self-determination include? Recover part of their land?

-It has to do with the reconstitution of the territory and that there may be autonomy from that territory.

-In some terms, and this is something that is currently under discussion in the Constituent, where certain conflicts of certain characteristics between indigenous communities can be dealt with under the admapu, rather than being taken to local police courts, for example. Then there are different mechanisms, I insist, there are successful examples of this in Canada, New Zealand, also Norway or some Nordic countries. Bolivia has a better relationship than we do today and I believe that we can learn from that and have a peaceful resolution of this or at least move in that direction. There is also another problem: when there are extractive activities, such as forestry, in territory that is conflictive, forestry activities also have to understand that they cannot remain there as if nothing else.

-Even if you've leased that land and you've been working there for a long time...

- Well, those are conversations we need to have. Nobody here is going to unilaterally impose anything on anyone. This has to be a conversation, which is difficult and I insist are negotiations that are not announced by the press, but it would be naive to ignore that forestry activity today in the La Araucaníam sector in the province of Arauco, is not part of the problem.

You're going to have a hard time with people who don't recognize you as president. It's gonna be hard work...

- And good. I cannot force everyone to like me, but I am the legitimate President of all who live in the territory of Chile and in that sense I have to exercise the authority that the people decide they have commanded me.

-You said during your campaign that Chile was recognized as the cradle of neoliberalism in Latin America and that you were going to make sure that it is also the tomb of neoliberalism. I would like you to tell me: do you define as “neoliberalism” what happened in Chile since the dictatorship of Pinochet until today?

-Neoliberalism in Chile was installed in the late 1970s, with the experiment carried out or the economic reconversion carried out by Milton Friedman's disciples known as Chicago Boys in the Labor Plan in the Social Security System, which is the AFP system, in the incentive to certain industries such as rightly forestry, in the subsidiary conception of the State that permeates the entire current Constitution and which, after so many years of dictatorship, inevitably permeated Chilean society. These are not things that are changed by decree, they are cultural changes that take a long time. I do not expect that in the four years of our mandate we will be able to change everything that we do not like, but I do hope that we will manage to have made a rudder turn, not the handlebar of Formula 1, but of the giant cruiser rudder, one of those slower ones, which is difficult to do so because we have to keep it firm, and neoliberalism from the point of view not only economically, but also from the point of view of individualism or whoever can be saved in the area of social rights, something that we are really interested in overcoming it.

-But then neoliberalism was also part of the center-left concertation that ruled Chile most of the time since the return of democracy...

- But we're still with the same Constitution! And that, as important representatives of what were the post-dictatorship democratic governments have said, the engineering with which the Chilean institutional framework was put together was made, in terms of its creators, so that, even if their opponents won, they could not substantially modify the rules of the game. And it is that in Chile they not only privatized our health, pensions, education, but they privatized the very concept of the State, and that is something that we, adapting to the discussions that have taken place over the last time in the world, have just to reverse. In Chile, we have to create a social security system, a much stronger public education, we have to create a health system that does not depend on the amount of money you have in your pocket, the quality of the health you access, and that has to do precisely with the institutional framework.

- Do you think that the model that Chile applied in the 30 years since the democratic recovery was a failure?

-I think that making such categorical judgments and words so categorical that they are very accurate, but that they are not used to make policies and do not serve to make complex historical analyses, would be a mistake on my part. I have a critical view of the transition process, but it also seems clear to me that it had undeniable successes, such as in the strength of its institutions or in the considerable reduction of poverty that occurred since the Aylwin government onwards. Even during the administration of President Lagos, there was a fairly significant reduction in inequality, not enough but significant for the terms of Chilean inequality. Then to say that it was all wrong, that it was a failure, as others said, that this was the paradise of Latin America, that we are the jaguars of I don't know what... Neither one nor the other. We had light and shadow and we need to learn from our experience in order to improve it.

-You know that compared to the instability experienced by most Latin American countries, Chile experienced a significant increase in GDP throughout this period, it reached the highest Human Development Index in Latin America, low poverty, low inflation...

-But look what happened in our country in 2019...

Of course, there were also pending lawsuits that were underground, weren't there?

-They were totally underground. We come from social movements. Now, that I come from social movements or that I come from whom we have been critics of the last governments does not mean that I believe that everything has been done wrong. If everyone who comes to the government believes that everything was done wrong before, the truth is that it is very difficult to move forward because countries are not built from scratch. Chile did have significant growth rates for 20 years, but we have been with a stagnant economy for 10 years and that is not the fault of either Piñera or Bachelet, it is the responsibility of an entire society, of which I am a part, that has not been able to update its development model in terms of improving productivity, improve, for example, productive linkages, improve, for example, technological transfers, improve, above all, the redistribution of wealth. Chile remains a profoundly unequal country. So is everything wrong? No. Are we paradise on earth? Neither. Can we get much better? Yes. And we want to do it institutionally. Making profound reforms that are structural and that means a redistribution of wealth for those who generate it, who are mainly workers and workers.

-One of the characteristics of Chilean democracy in the last 30 years was the alternation between two center-left and center-right coalitions. This is broken by his coming to power together with a coalition more to the left than the previous one. Do you think that in turn a more right-wing coalition can emerge as a reaction and this will open up a polarization or a rift that already exists in other countries but from which Chile has so far seemed to be on the sidelines?

-But if the right wing that existed for a long time in Chile defended Pinochet. He went to see him in London, denied human rights violations. He only began to condemn him when the silver robberies were discovered. Then why do you call me center-right? What does centroright mean? They were in favor of the most brutal privatizations... But it is clear that today there is an ultra-right in the world, which has different manifestations, from Orban in Hungary, Trump in the United States, Bolsonaro, I think Bukele also has something of authoritarian deviations that are worrying. And they also exist in Chile. We beat a candidate in the second round who was clearly also ultra-right. That already exists in Chile and it has already formed a party called Republicans and that has representation in Congress, what happened with Vox in Spain. So, it is not a novelty, and every action contains a reaction in itself. And therefore, it is important that in order to make changes that are structural, we build a majority that are able to sustain them over time and not fall into a willingness to say: because I think it is right, I am going to push it in any way, even if it is not the majority in Chilean society. The important thing is that we manage to connect or be complicit with the majority common sense of a people. If not, we're going to be in a permanent pendulum and that permanent pendulum generates cracks.

-That's what has happened in Argentina, in Brazil, in recent years...

-We came to Argentina with a delegation that included representatives of the vast majority of political parties, including the right-wing forces that were government with President Sebastián Piñera, because there are certain issues that are state policies and I would expect that not only international relations would occur in that framework, but also issues such as energy policy or that the new Constitution we are doing, the exit plebiscite that we have, is a meeting point between Chileans and Chileans, not a point of division. I am not afraid of great consensus and transversal consensus, the point is who participates in them. For a long time, agreements were understood as only part of an elite. Today, the mobilized and organized people are an inherent part of the transformation of regional societies

-Another characteristic of Chile in recent decades was its great commercial openness. It must be the country in the region with the most signed free trade agreements. With the United States, with China, with the European Union... Do you think we should review this openness and have a more protectionist policy?

-I am very much in favour of opening up trade between peoples. I think it is desirable that we have treaties with different nations and no country, even more so these days, is going to be saved autarchically. Either we save ourselves together or we sink separately. And I would expect Chile to be located mainly in Latin America and that we will recover and enhance all the cooperation we need in our countries in the region and from there, by the way, we look at the rest of the world. The center of the world was once in the Mediterranean, then in the Atlantic, today is in the Pacific and Chile's tremendous coast gives us an importance that I think will be key in Latin America's trade to the Pacific. I am in favour of maintaining treaties with the largest number of countries in the world, but be careful, without these treaties limiting our way of development. That means reviewing multilaterally because we want to be able to decide our own destiny.

-Last weekend, the New York Times published an article that reported that Madrid, as Miami was before, is becoming the refuge of many Latin Americans of the middle class, not billionaires, from countries where left forces have triumphed, who are afraid of losing their savings, of being affected by increases tax or new provisions that impose obstacles to their businesses or professions. Are you afraid that something similar will happen in Chile?

- I hope not. I don't want to pose the tax reform that we are working on as something adversarial. What I think is important is that a country that is not cohesive cannot grow. And Chile is a country that has not grown substantially for 10 years. So, we need to better distribute wealth. Then you have to be careful to place the incentives where they belong so as not to destroy the investment. One must be careful for one goal other than growth being development, because there are times when some grow a lot and others do not grow at all and the averages hide very large inequalities. Chile is a very unequal country. But I wouldn't tell anyone we're going to take away their savings, we're not at that stop. We are about to distribute better, and the wealthiest sectors of society need to make a greater contribution.

-How are you going to do the reform of the pension system, which is one of your objectives, without taking away the savings of those who have been saving in the AFP?

- But why would we take them away?

- Well, here it was done like this...

We don't want to take anyone's savings. What workers have saved all their lives is theirs and that is going to stay that way. What we say is that we have to build a social security system where, in addition to individual savings, there is collective savings that allow us to generate a buffer that is common so that the pensions of most of our compatriots are worthy. Today, the average pension in Chile reaches about 40% of the salary, therefore, most people who reach retirement age end up in unworthy living conditions. We are not going to solve that with a whoever can, we are not going to solve it by saying only “save more”. We also have to generate a common fund, and that is what we are promoting, respecting, and I want to be very clear, 100% of the savings that workers have in their accounts.

-President, you have said about your international policy, that you want to rebase it on the fact that Chile is part of Latin America and from there to strengthen the regional bloc. During his campaign it was very clear, unlike other leaders of the Latin American left, to distance himself from Nicolás Maduro, Daniel Ortega, Cuba... but yesterday at the press conference at Casa Rosada he seemed to take a step back when he said that he was asked a lot about it and didn't ask him so much about the violations of rights that exist in your country, in Chile or in Colombia. This is usually the way in which what is happening in Venezuela or Nicaragua is minimized or diluted by comparing them to human rights violations that, obviously, exist in different parts of the world. Do you think they're the same level of seriousness?

-Obviously they're not of the same level. I mean, none of them are of the same level as another. These are totally different realities.

- But which ones are more serious for you?

- But what do you want? What do you do as a ranking of human rights violations? It seems to me that the ones in South Sudan are terrible...

-No, well, in Latin America we're talking. Our regional bloc is Latin America...

-... it seems to me that the occupation of the Palestinian people by the State of Israel, in violation of international treaties, is terrible. It seems to me that Nicaragua's repression of opponents of the Ortega regime is absolutely unacceptable. It seems to me that the exodus of 6 million Venezuelans is a tragedy on a continental and global level, but why is the logic of saying “this is more serious than another”. To see how left-wing I am? I think that is very bad for the cause of human rights. The cause of human rights, part of its grace, is that it is universal and therefore cannot be advanced according to the colors of the government that violates them. And there, that is an issue that I see with irritation as in each country it is about using human rights crises in other countries to be internal politics and finally it seems that he gives a damn about the fellow student leader who is suffering in a prison in Nicaragua, what matters to them is trying to make a point in politics to try to hit the government of the day. That's not my topic. I will defend human rights everywhere, in every country and regardless of the color of the Government that violates them.

-It's perfect. But in both the case of Chile and Colombia, no one would doubt that they are democracies, where there is the rule of law and where human rights violations can occur that must be repudiated and investigated. Now, do you think that in Venezuela or in Nicaragua there is a democracy, there is the rule of law?

I've said it many times, I don't know where your question is pointing. It seems to me that the most recent elections in Nicaragua do not meet any democratic standards

- And in Venezuela?

- And it seems to me that what we are doing today in the International Contact Group, in Venezuela, in which Chile is collaborating, which is being carried out in Mexico so that the next elections in Venezuela are recognized, legitimate for all people living in Venezuela and also for the entire community abroad, is a tremendously important work. Look what happened in Barinas just now. What happened in Barinas?

- Finally the Chavez family lost power...

- And that was recognized?

-Yes

- And it was a breakthrough?

-First he was fought. Twice the choice had to be made

-Well, I know, and he was recognized. In other words, it seems to me that our role today must be to collaborate at all levels, for example in the case of Venezuela, in the International Contact Group, so that democracy and the will of the Venezuelan people succeed. And also, I hope that Venezuelans who have had to leave for different reasons and have left their country can also be part of the elections. I think it should also be an important milestone, but of course that is not our path.

- Can democratic leaders do anything else to restore democracy in these countries?

-I see that the International Contact Group in the case of Venezuela is what has made the most progress in recent times. Because it's a lot of work that's quiet and less shrill. When a group of leaders decided to travel to the border with Colombia, almost doing as a New Year's countdown in Cúcuta to try to bring about a change in the Venezuelan situation, did that really help? Do you think that helped to improve the situation? I would say no, so here it is not about who wears the cape and becomes the superhero and tries to have greater leadership. No, these jobs are made quieter and without having a double standard. I think that is the main thing in terms of human rights. In Chile, human rights were brutally violated during the civic military dictatorship of 73 to 90 and we received a lot of support, for example, from the Venezuelan people. Then we will be like “Ah, no, if Maduro does, I better look at the side because it is supposed to be from the left. No, I'm not going to fall for that.

-Many progressive Latin American leaders who came to the government later were investigated for corruption, in some cases with very strong evidence. But they have defended themselves by upholding the theory of “lawfare” which states that they are persecuted by the establishment and the economic elites who, together with justice, invent false causes for them to persecute them for their political ideas. Do you agree with this?

I think each case has to be analyzed on its merit. I don't know the judicial details of each of them. I have seen, for example, the case of Dilma, in which it seems to me that there was obviously an operation by corrupt political sectors to try to get rid of his leadership. But I don't know the specific case of each one. It is clear that there have been situations of corruption that are unacceptable and that it is irrelevant if the person carrying out corruption actions is called whatever he is called and therefore in any of those cases it is necessary to investigate and that is why it is also important to maintain the independence of the courts, which is something that also in certain parts of Latin America have been strongly questioned. And, again, it doesn't matter if it is left or right, corruption and the prevalence of private interests over the common interests of a country cannot be legitimized according to the color of the person who does it, and I am going to defend that strictly in my country, which is where it belongs to me and this is my declaration of principles towards the world too .

- Who is your favorite Latin American leader in recent decades?

-I have a deep respect for Álvaro García Linera. I think his intellectual elaboration and his performance in the vice presidency of Bolivia has been very interesting. The problem with these questions is that they force you to make very categorical judgments about people who have light and shadow...

-Many times as president you have to make categorical judgments...

-Well, I've taken several in this interview. But I also know from experience the controversies they lend themselves to.

-All right. I'm going to give you three names, of world leaders in this case, and give me the most concrete definition you can: Joe Biden

-I find it extremely interesting what you are doing in the field of global taxes. It seems to me that this is an agenda from Latin America we should agree on a common position. I had the opportunity to talk to him... One of the things that I am absolutely clear about is that Chile cannot subordinate itself to any power and therefore we are going to pursue a policy of autonomy in terms of international alliances that we are going to defend. Now it is evident that he has had a lot of problems and when you see the nature of what Trump's Republican Party has become, I imagine that it must be very difficult.

-Xi Jinping

-I had a controversy when I was a deputy with the Chinese ambassador to Chile about the Hong Kong case because he questioned the travel of some Chilean deputies. And I, for no reason, find it acceptable for an ambassador from another country to question the views of national parliamentarians. Now, I think we have China... I don't know Xi Jinping personally... we've only had an epistolary exchange for now, but we have to try to read China in a longer historical dimension that is much longer than ours. We have been brought up in a Western decalogue that completely omits the east. We began to know China since the invasion of Manchuria in 1930 and before we knew almost nothing. So, I lack a background to give you an even deeper opinion.

-Vladimir Putin

“It seems to me that he is an autocrat, I think it is evident that he is waging a war of aggression. I have been able to study a little more about Russian, pan-Russian culture, mainly from 1917 onwards, also something from before, and I think that what Putin is doing today is unacceptable and must be unacceptable to the international community. However, it seems to me that the logic of international sanctions is very good when they are used to press, for example, in this case to end the war, but when an entire people end up being harmed by the decisions of a few rulers, I think we also need to be able to review them and that they are not the best way to go.

“I was just going to ask him about several countries that are already asking for Putin to be tried for war crimes... Have you seen the images of Bucha?

-The images of Bucha, the bombings in Mariupol... are absolutely unacceptable and that record certainly has to be presented in due course before the International Criminal Court and there will be the international tribunals that will have to say. I am not a judge, but I have no doubt that this has to be investigated.

-Three surveys of recent days in Chile, by Cadem, Pulso Ciudadano and Feedback mark an important leap in the rejection of his management of about 15 points in just his first weeks of government. How do you read these surveys and how do you feel about this?

-I imagine that when you start to take a position on certain issues, you can't be a gold coin and everyone likes it and I'm not going to rule thinking about the next week's poll. I think it is very important that as President of the Republic I can look beyond the situation and discuss with everyone and talk with all sectors, what the common good is, even if that is unpopular at a certain time. Of course, one would always prefer that polls give you the best possible results, but it is not something that causes me particular distress about the popularity polls of a given photo. Trends will have to be seen and finally this is valued in the long term.

-And what these polls also showed for the first time is that now a majority of Chileans could reject the new Constitution in the exit plebiscite that is mandatory for its entry into force.

-The exit plebiscite will be on September 4th. Our management, on the other hand, has four years left. Then we have a plebiscite that is much closer and of course I think that we have to take note of those who support the constituent process and who want to have a new constitution for the first time democratic, equal, with the participation of the indigenous peoples... because finally, I think that in practice the Constitution has already expired of the dictatorship, we have to take it with concern. We are going to work together to ensure that the exit plebiscite is a meeting point, not a dividing point.

- What would happen if she was rejected?

-There's a discussion going on. But I think it would be very bad news for Chile. And therefore I prefer not to put myself on that stage but to do everything possible to generate enough consensus for it to be adopted and, hopefully, with a large majority.

They say that all presidents are remembered for one or two things, no more. For which one or two things would you like to be remembered?

-It's too early to say. That obsession with how one is going to go down in history in three weeks. I think you'd better ask me in the third year. We talked about it in a new interview there. But now we have to calm that anxiety of statue meat.

-The term in Chile today is 4 years without the possibility of re-election. Do you think that's enough? Would you like this to be reformed in the Constitution?

-Look at political science this is much discussed. The case of Chile is very particular, being a presidential system of only four years. I tend to think that it is desirable to increase that period, either by re-election or by increasing the term by a couple of years.

-It was longer in Chile before...

-Yes, it was 6 years old during the 20th century in general. Those in Lagos and Frei were 6 years old. Bachelet and Piñera ruled for 4 years. I think we should look for a middle ground, but in any case, I am very clear that I was elected for a four-year term and I think that is what should be applied to me.

-The last and fundamental: who is going to swell for at the World Cup in Qatar

- (Laughs) Look, I'm still grieving. It is that terrible addiction to hope that we Chileans have that until the last game I thought we could qualify. But I wish you all the best Argentina. Not just because I'm here. I don't know why there's like a group of people who are like very Anti-Messi. I have the utmost respect for Lionel and I would love it if a player of his caliber and also with the tremendous players that the Argentina team has, today could have a cup. I think it would be a source of continental joy.